NatChat - Optimise Your Data Centre Spend With Dell APEX's Cloud Cost Model

In this episode of NatChat, Matyas Prokop, Technology Director for Multi-Cloud at Natilik, is joined by Matt Goodley, EMEA APEX Sales Leader from Dell to explore the growing shift towards consumption-based infrastructure - and why Dell Apex is becoming an increasingly compelling answer to the challenges organisations face today.

This episode covers:

• Why organisations are repatriating workloads from hyperscalers back on-premises, and what's driving that shift
• How AI spend is creating budget pressure — and pushing more businesses towards flexible consumption models
• What Dell Apex actually is: a cloud-like operating model for on-prem infrastructure where you only pay for what you use
• How commit levels and metering work across storage and compute
• What happens when your usage outgrows your initial estimates
• How hardware refresh cycles interact with an Apex contract
• Why waiting out current supply and pricing pressures is likely the wrong move — and what to do instead

If you're exploring how to get more flexibility and cost certainty from your on-premises infrastructure, get in touch with the team at Natilik to find out how Dell Apex could work for your environment at hello@natilik.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hi everyone, I'm Matthias Prokop. I'm a technology director in Nazilik looking after multi-cloud. And today I'm the host for this podcast, and I'm bringing someone who I've met a month ago at the Dell World in Las Vegas. It is Matt Goodley from Dell. And we're here today to talk about Dell Apex. Hi Matt, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Thank you very much for having me today. Really great to be here and really good to follow up after our initial meeting in Las Vegas, which seems a long time ago now, actually, even though it's only a month ago.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been it's been a while. You've managed to like share, share with people in a podcast, say where you've been.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Where have I been since? Um so look, I'm the sales leader for for Apex um across uh the Emir region for Dell. And because we are so successful at the moment and our business is growing, I had the absolute privilege of going to Hawaii on our Chairman's Club and had spent some time with Michael Dell and Pete Drazino and Billy Scunnell, who are all our senior leaders with within within our sales business. So a wonderful week, great. Um still trying to catch up on the on the sleep, but uh but it was a fantastic opportunity and a brilliant, brilliant week. So uh um so Vegas and Hawaii, two different trips within three weeks. Um it's been fun. Fantastic. Congratulations to you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Anyway, so let's talk about Dell Apex. Uh so probably like, you know, let's start with like, you know, basic question or like essential question. So, why Apex? Like, you know, what is the shift in the market you're seeing? Uh, the way like, you know, maybe the clients are consuming the technology. So let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

That's a really interesting place to start. Um so let me just take one step back from there and just say, look, I worked within our Apex business for the last six or seven years now. Um, and I put my hand up a few years ago and said that this is the future. I I want to lead this business. And and um somebody agreed with me and then uh said off you go, go, go do it. And we put in a lot of hard yards, and I don't think the market was quite ready at that stage to say, let's just go forward with with a load of consumption models. I think ultimately the business and the market is now changing. Um, and we are seeing a huge amount of growth within as a service offerings. Um, I think there's a few reasons behind that. Um, I think the hyperscalers have traditionally done a very, very good job, and customers like that operating model of the cloud, you know, the cloud, you know, whatever everyone thinks that is. And if you ask 10 different people, you may get 10 different answers to that. But they like the operating model. They like the pay-per-use offering. And I think also where we are within the marketplace at the moment, and we'll we'll get into this, but price volatility, lack of supply, it's really feeding into those kind of consumption-based models for a number of different reasons. But we'll dig down on that. So, and as Dell, you know, we we like it as well for a number of different reasons. But I think ultimately the value proposition of as a service really resonates very well with not just technologists within business, but the finance community and the procurement um communities as well. And they kind of get it now, which um they probably didn't five or six years ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

That's great. Yeah, I I you know I can definitely second that. You know, me as a technologist, what I'm seeing is clients not moving away from the cloud. Like, you know, they definitely see the value in the cloud, but they are moving some of their workloads back on prem because they they like you know keeping the control over the cost, et cetera. As a technologist, I'm also seeing like, you know, they like like certain parts of the cloud. So like, you know, the these two things, commercials and the technologies, are are very much are very much aligned uh together.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah. I agree on on the repatriation thing, by the way. I think that's one of the um one of the key reasons why our business is growing from a um an as a service perspective. You know, I think if you asked the question five years ago to technologists, the procurement to finance people, there was like, oh, we'll go to the hyperscalers because it's cheaper, right? And I think um it was about 12 months ago now, Michael Dell put something on LinkedIn, and it was like 71% of CIOs are looking to repatriate workloads from the hyperscalers back to on-prem predominantly because of cost. I think if you ask that question now, it would be cost and probably data sovereignty and data security. So it it's the market has changed a little bit. It's not, you know, the cost profile, definitely cheaper on-prem. Um, it's definitely cheaper on-prem plus as a service, it's even better. But then you've also got where we are on the macro sort of global scenario at the moment, and we won't get too much into that, but I think data sovereignty, especially in a mirror, is becoming increasingly important as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yeah, it's interesting. I was uh just talking this morning to one of the leaders from uh HSBC uh around the tokenomics, and uh it feels like AI is like another tailwind into bringing these things uh back on-prem because what they're seeing is like since probably end of 2025, it used to be like very much under control. Like, you know, what is their cost when it comes to the AI? It seems now with the agentic AI everything exploding, that the cost is getting a little bit out of control. And it feels like you know, AI in general is one of the telewinds which is bringing this stuff back on-prem. So I think it's gonna be interesting to see like, you know, the tokenomics and how Dell Apex will be sort of like you know, hand-to-hand together.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, I think um I think AI is is really interesting. You're in if you're in our business within the Dell business, everyone talks about AI, and then the second thing they talk about is probably AI, and then probably the third thing they talk about is AI as well. But I think if you look at that in a customer lens, um a lot of AI spend has not really been budgeted, right? It it's kind of new and everybody's racing to try to either stay up with the game or try to get ahead of the game, and that's that that spend has not been budgeted. So what else do they do for their their core systems, their core business? So they need to make their budgets go further, and we'll get back to price inflation in in you know very shortly as well. Budgets need to go further. So they are looking at different ways of consuming, they're moving away from the traditional procurement models, cash, basically, or lease, and say there's a better way of doing this. The better way of doing it is actually paying for what you consume, removal of technical debt from your environment, and and ultimately help mitigate some of this price volatility and supply constraints that we're seeing in the marketplace as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Great stuff. So we talk about the market, we talk about like, you know, why do why do we why why does this all happening? So should we double click on a Dell Apex and dwell a little bit deeper on like what actually Dell Apex is and bitter, you know, explain to the audience like the structure of Dell Apex and how it works.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, this is me giving an elevator pitch for for about 30 seconds, right? I'm gonna pretend that, you know, I bumped into Michael Dell in an elevator and we'll we'll talk about it. But look, really simply, and I think we've done a very good job, by the way, of confusing a lot of people about what Apex is over the years, but really simply it's it's a cloud-based operating model for on-prem infrastructure. That's it. You know, you you pay for what you consume, but for your own infrastructure, which is in your your data center or a shared location or you know, uh wherever, right? So, but ultimately that's it. You know, you're paying for what you consume. So think about that cloud-like economics, but for on-prem dedicated infrastructure with all the benefits of on-prem. All the benefits of on-prem being security, governance, compliance, data sovereignty, better cost profile, etc. etc. So really simply you're paying for what you utilize for your own infrastructure on-prem. That's it. We could go, we could overcomplicate it, but if I was chatting to somebody for the first time to say, what do I do? I would ultimately put it like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Okay, so so if if I am the architect uh and I'm you know building these solutions where I will be running, you know, whatever workloads I have. And I would like to present this to the CFO. Like what I would say to my CFO to explain the benefits of of Dell Apex, let's say, you know, over to like you know, typical leasing or like you know, paying cash, like you know, what terms I'm working with? Like, you know, can I like you know choose three, five, ten years? Like, you know, what what what are the options?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, so ultimately you can have a commit from one to five years. Um, it's one year for storage backup hyperconverged, and you've got a minimum commit of three years for server, but ultimately you're gonna contract for for five years, okay? Or you have the ability to contract for five years, but from day one, we're always gonna give you rates for five years at the different levels of commitment that you can ultimately have for that particular piece of technology. So, for example, let's say, and I'm not a technologist, you know this as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

We had the And I'm and I'm not finance guy, so like great.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

So between us, we'll be able to navigate this, okay? So, but ultimately, let's say that um we have some backup, okay? And we have a hundred terabytes of backup, and we are gonna provision all that a hundred terabytes on day one for the customer. Now, if you did that on a cash model, then ultimately, and let's say that's a million euros for the sake of argument, then you as a customer are gonna pay for a million euros for that 100 terabytes of capacity, and you're gonna pay for that on day one. Okay. But you're never gonna utilize it at all, and you're never gonna utilize it all on day one. And also you've got a position which says that actually for the first three months of that, you've got a delivery, you've got installation, and then you're gonna start going to utilize it. So for that area, you kind of look at it and go, well, actually, you're not utilizing this asset all of the time. You're certainly not, and customers, their average utilization tends to be on a storage array 65 to 70% during the life of it. So why would you pay for 100% of that capacity? I get it traditionally, and customers, you know, they've they've done that traditionally. But if you've got an average utilization of 65%, say for 65% for over the course of the the the life of that asset, why pay for 100%? Why not just pay for what you utilize? That's always gonna save you some money. It's also gonna give you operational efficiencies as well, because you know, we're giving you all the capacity up front instead of maybe having to do upgrades over time, but ultimately it's it's again, it's gonna be matching your costs to ultimately what your revenue is or revenue utilization of that particular asset. Okay. That's super important.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

That that's interesting. So, like, you know, me, non-finance guy, you said like, you know, we will give you 100 teraoff capacity. So does it mean like, you know, you literally ship the storage which has a hundred tera of capacity into my data center? So it is there physically. However, I've committed only to 60, 70 teras for now. So when like how easily I can use those extra three 30 teras? Like, you know, let's say in six months, like you know, I committed to something, but in six months, like you know, there's this huge spike of like you know, data. And I and I'm I know I have like you know, spare 30 teras in my data center. So how easily I can start consuming those 30 teras?

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Exactly how easily it would be on a cash basis because the capacity is there. We give you no restrictions at all on on how you use your capacity. So, and you mentioned 60, 70% commitment on storage backup, you can have 40% commitment. So think about that in today's environment as well, where actually customers may have said, Oh, I'm gonna put 50 terabytes in today because that's what I've had budget for, and I may do the other 50 terabytes at some stage in the future. If you did that upgrade at 50 terabytes into the future, that's gonna be at tomorrow's cost or in six months' time. And in a price volatile environment which we all live in at the moment, I have no idea what that cost is gonna be, but it's gonna be more. If you do that deal on Apex, do the whole of the hundred terabytes today, and we're locking in today's prices. But also, really importantly, if you increase your level of commitment over time, you're not only locking in your prices, but you also have the ability to lower your rate over the course of time. So think about that from a competitive standpoint. So you're in a competitive environment, use technology to drive revenue. But if you have the ability to lower your cost of your technology over time compared to some of your competitors who may not be using this model and ultimately saying, actually, I've got to do an upgrade, and that may be twice the cost at some stage in the future, I get to lower my costs. Customer, my my competitors get to increase their costs. That that's a good thing for a business. So those kind of things are something that you know people don't really think about too often, and they really need to.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

So I know I'm always going a little bit into the technicalties and stuff. So I'm gonna ask that. Um, so okay, like you know, I've committed to let's say 50 teras, I have 100 teras in my data center. Um, I said, like, you know, I was expecting I'm gonna get to 60, 70, let's say, in two years. It happened within the year. Or like, you know, let's say it happened within the first nine months. And I'm like, you know, now on a 60 teras, I can consume it. What's the approach from Dell? Like, you know, like well, like, you know, when I'm starting to pay for those extra 10 or 20 teras, like how does it work?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Um, well, it it's automatic, right? It just is our billing. We meter the asset, so we know exactly what you're utilizing, and and obviously we share all that data with with partners, end users, et cetera. So they know exactly what they're they're looking at and how they're utilizing that will also give them a forecast about what's happening in the future or where it's going to go. Okay. But what we want to do as Dell is to make sure our customers get the best value. Okay. So that means that if you've committed to 40% for your array and then you're utilizing 60, you will have a conversation with Dell. And we're going to come to you and say, is this just a spike? Are you going to stay there? Are you going to come back down? Because ultimately, if that is your your level that you're going to stay on. A new baseline, basically. That's your new baseline, then increase your level of commitment. I see. If you increase your level of commitment, so maybe if you move from 40 to 50% or 60%, whatever, you are going to lower your unit rate cost. So you lower your unit rate cost, and that could be whatever. From let's say your currently your unit rate is at 10, it may go down to nine. It's going to save you some money. Okay. Because the the rate is for your base capacity, your committed capacity, and all your variable capacity. It's one rate. We don't charge you a premium for using your variable capacity. It's exactly the same rate. So you have certainty about what your cost will be, but you also have certainty in the future to say if I'm going to lock in a higher level of commitment, then you know what that rate's going to be. It's going to be lower.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Okay. No, that's great. And so if we would apply this to compute for a change. So, like, you know, storage, you know, great example you've used. So, like, you know, that one is clear now. How does it work with a compute? Exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Um, it's a certain amount of capacity. The commit levels are higher on compute. Um, it's a 70% commit as a minimum. Um it the reasons behind that is is a margin profile ultimately. Um, be really honest about that. There's no point not being honest about that. People always say, why have you got 40% for storage and only 70%? Because it's due with a margin profile. But ultimately it works the same way. Um again, we meter the utilization of the underlying compute, whether that's memory or whether it's CPU hours. And ultimately, if you utilize it, you pay for it, or you utilize more than the your base commit, you'll go and pay for more. If you don't utilize anything more than your base commit, that's at Dell's risk, not the customer's risk. So you know exactly what you're gonna spend. It doesn't matter whether it's a compute, hyperconverged, backup storage. We will work with the customers to make sure that we can give them an illustration based on how much they're growing, when they think they're gonna have spikes, about what the total cost of utilization would be over a specific term.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Interesting. Uh is this applicable to GPUs as well in a compute?

SPEAKER_01 16:09

So currently we don't met a GPU. Um that's not necessarily a Dell thing, it's a two with, and I'm not technical. So they say it's more to do with the API access that we have onto the GPU. I see, okay. So if we're doing GPU servers, which we do on Apex, then ultimately we would either look at a memory utilization or we'd look at the CPU side as well. So again, I'm not hugely technical, and people say, is there a direct link between a GPU utilization and CPU in a in a particular box? Probably not. So I wouldn't say so. But ultimately, if that's what we're metering, that could be a benefit to a customer as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Interesting. And so, like let's say, you know, I want to maybe how does it work like in terms of the generations of the hardware? So, like, you know, like you know, I will sign up uh Apex for let's say five years. I would expect that there will be at least like you know, one generation upgrade in terms of the hardware uh within those five years. How does it work? Like, you know, am I staying on the like you know same generation uh for those five years?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, you you are. So think about this as just a different way to consume your technology. Right. So if you uh whatever we put some backup in or server, it doesn't matter, okay? And you've committed to let's say a three-year period, okay? Um, you're committed to that technology for three years at the minimum commit level, okay. And and that ultimately is a price times quantity of capacity, and therefore there's a minimum amount that you will pay, you are committed to that payment. Okay. Um, if you want to, at the end of three years, say, you know what, these servers, I I want to go refresh them, we'll go and have a refresh conversation. If you want to extend it, you can do, and you'll have a rate card out to five years anyway. So you know exactly what that cost profile will ultimately look like. But it depends. If you have a refresh cycle for server, which may be three years, but you have a refresh cycle for storage, which is say five years, well, refresh it over five years for your storage. Well, if you want to extend it, we can do as well. Um, but if you've got a three-year sort of refresh cycle for server, then commit to initial three years. If you change your mind and want to continue utilization, you can do. If you want to move on to the latest version, then you can do that after the end of three years as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And how about the upgrades? So, like, you know, I have a compute where I'm like, you know, I've pl out like I gave you some sort of e-forecast and estimate how much memory I'm gonna need. But like, you know, let's say after two years, I would be like, shoot, like, you know, we were doing too well, and like, you know, my estimates were like too low. So what what are the options then?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

That that's um that's a bigger question than you think. Okay. So look for for me, and this isn't my line. I was with um um a briefing with a with a customer a couple of weeks back, and they they turned around and said to me, You're this makes sense to me, this whole model, but you're ultimately saying you should do phase two now as well. So do the upgrade today. Yeah, so put the additional capacity together. That's exactly where I was heading. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So for me, do the bigger capacity today because you're locking in today's prices. However, to go back to your question, can you upgrade? Absolutely, you can upgrade, but I'm not gonna guarantee you what that pricing for additional capacity would be in the future. We we just can't. Yeah. Okay. So if you look to say, look, I've I don't know, I have X amount of nodes of server that I've put into the data center 10 for the sake of argument, and actually I've miscalculated and in two years' time or whatever, I would like another 10, that's fine. We would do an upgrade, we would price that at that particular time. And you, as a customer, has a choice. Do you want to do that on a co-term basis? Do you want to extend the term? Do you want a brand new schedule? It's a flexible consumption model for a reason. So they give you the option.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

I was about to say it would probably make more sense to maybe bring another fleet of servers. Like, you know, if if I like underestimated like what's going to be my growth, it would probably make sense to keep it doing, you know, as it is and then bring bring like you know additional fleet of servers into this. Yeah, I mean, like it's it is unlikely. I'm just like creating like scenarios which maybe not are not even real. Like, you know, I they are real. Are they? Okay. They're absolutely because like you know, most of the time, like you know, clients having like you know good estimates about like what they're gonna need in the next three to five years.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, I I think they do. Um, but I think if you take a step back on that as well, I think customers look at what their provisioning will be and and how much capacity doesn't matter whether it's compute or storage capacity over the course of the next five years, they they never get it right, right? They are either underutilized or they have to go and do an upgrade. They're not or very rarely are they absolutely bang on. The thing is about an apex model, if they get it wrong, well, if they're underutilized, that's all at Dell's risk because they don't pay for the additional capacity. If you need to do an upgrade because maybe they've bought a new business or they brought a new product out and the business has has grown substantially, well, that's okay because ultimately you can add that additional capacity into your environment, but you also have the ability to sort of pay for what you utilize. It's not a big oh one-off capex charge to say, oh, it's another X amount of $100,000 or whatever it is. Um, you can just keep on um utilizing the the commercial model to the benefit of your benefit of your business. Because if you're growing, there's gonna be more revenue on the back of that, I would assume. And this helps mitigate the costs associated with that growth as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, I mean, like especially in a compute, that's huge, right? Because when you look at the lead times with the servers, any vendor, like you know, Dell or any other vendor, like you know, they're obviously there's a like you know, limited supply right now in the market, so demand is huge. So, like, you know, having something like this where you will deliver physical kit into the data center and it's being available, and then you can like, you know, you basically say, like, you know, I have a 30% buffer on my infrastructure where I can grow immediately. I mean, like, that's huge, right? You know, that's that that's just like Such a such a game changer for lots of our clients.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. And there's another point to that as well, which we've kind of touched on. Absolutely, you're guaranteeing supply because it's already delivered into your data center. So that buffer, fine, you know, if it's not switched on, we we don't meter it and you don't pay for it, right? You turn it on and you start paying for it, but it's not in six months' time what the pricing is. You've locked in your pricing today. Yeah. And then again, I'll go back and make the point. If you're say a 70% commit for your server estate and you start utilizing that buffer, well, go and then commit to 80%, and then you're gonna lower your cost for your server. You're not gonna increase it. You're gonna lower your costs over time. That is exceptionally powerful within today's environment because it it's hyperinflation.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

So now one scenario. Uh like I'm I'm hearing it a lot, and I'm not gonna say my opinion on that. I would love to hear like your your opinion. So there are clients out there who's saying, I'm gonna wait it out. Like, you know, this is like you know, this is like this is gonna end, you know, very soon. So I'm gonna wait it out, like what's happening on the market. Um with with Apex, that you know, if you hear this, like what is your what is your approach? Like, what is your answer to this?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Um my answer is go look at the analysts and um and go see what's happening in the marketplace. Um and look, Dell will give you a view which says that we are continuing to see prices go up, okay? And that's to do with supply. The supply of parts is not gonna get fixed overnight because this is not a oh, we're suddenly gonna bring on board you know an extra bit of capacity in a current factory. It's actually we need to build the factory. So that's gonna take a while to ultimately fix and then and then flow through into you know production of server storage, etc. etc. So it's gonna take a while, okay? Um but we have solutions, okay? I haven't got a magic wand. I can't fix your pricing for the next five years for you, apart from the capacity or the capacity that you we would deliver today on an Apex model, but I can help mitigate some of those price volatility, and I can help mitigate some of the supply constraints by doing phase two today. Do phase two today, whatever that upgrade is, put more capacity, whatever capacity is, on into your data center as of today, fix your prices for all that capacity, and have the ability to lower your pricing over time. And also you're going to remove technical debt from your environment. By moving technical debt from your environment, that's ultimately what I mean by that is moving away from that 100% commit model to a variable commit model. Customers do not utilize all their capacity 100% of the time. So why the hell would you pay for 100% of the capacity all the time?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, I agree. Um, like you know, my take is the demand is not going away. It's gonna go only higher. Uh, when you look at the like, you know, hyperscalers, how much money they're spending and how much money they are planning to spend in the next two or three years, that's gonna go only higher. That's not gonna go lower. Supply, to your point, I totally agree. Like, you know, supply is not gonna turn up in the next 12, uh, 24 months. You know, that's gonna take a while. So we're like probably like three years away from like the supply actually increasing. So when you put that like, you know, almost same supply or like you know, lightly increased supply and hugely increased demand, the this you know, increase in pricing is not gonna go away. And it's not Dell's fault. Like, you know, this is like general, like, you know, market, you know, right now. I think Apex locking down the pricing for the next three or four years is a huge advantage. You know, like who knows what it's going to be in five or six years, but I think we can almost guarantee in the next like three to four years, it's not gonna go any any better. It's not gonna get any better. And Apex is a great tool for like enabling you to sort of like you know lock the pricing for the next three, four years at least.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

It it's like you're doing my job for me, so it's that that that's okay. I look, I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

I'm I'm I'm gonna ask for it, Carton. Okay, we'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

We'll see what I can do. No, I I think that look all the conversations that I'm having, whether it be internally with our partners, with our customers, is is is is around about four four sort of pillars. One is how can we remove technical debt from our customers, moving away from a hundred percent commit model to a variable commit model? You will save money. The second part of that is how do we help mitigate price volatility, which we've kind of spoken about. And the third bit of that is supply. Again, do more now, do phase two now and and have the capacity. And I think the the fourth part of that is Dell does have supply. Dell's supply chain is second to none. Um, we are selling more than 50% of AI servers in you know globally, they're coming through Dell. We have very good deals with the supply chain, and our supply chain is second to none. So I think all of that points to come talk to Dell about the issues that you're having. Again, I haven't got a magic wand, but I definitely can help mitigate some of the problems and challenges that we're seeing with our customers within every single marketplace that we deal in.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Great stuff. Matt, I think we're running out of time. This has been fun, though. This has been fun. I really enjoyed it. It was very interesting. For me, someone non-finance, it was very interesting. Uh, it's uh it's a kind of new field for me to uh to explore. So uh thanks for that. I I'm sure it was very useful for people who are listening. Uh great insight. And uh yeah, thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Um, you're really, really welcome. Really enjoyed uh doing this today, and uh thank you for the invitation. And look, let's let's do some more of these.